MagnoliaTree: Inspiring Brave Leaders
We are Sabine Gromer and Christina Huber and you're listening to Magnolia Tree's podcast "Inspiring Brave Leaders". We leverage our network of inspiring individuals from all walks of life to learn from their experiences with leadership. We aim to spark thinking on ethics and leadership one podcast episode at a time.
MagnoliaTree: Inspiring Brave Leaders
Shifting Paradigms – Nora Wilhelm on Systems Change and a Regenerative Future
What does it take to drive real systems change? In this episode, Christina speaks with social innovator Nora Wilhelm.
Nora Wilhelm is a (co-)founder of several social change initiatives, including “collaboratio helvetica” in Switzerland, and has been recognized as a Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree as well as a Swiss delegate at the UNESCO Economic and Social Development (ESD) Conference.
Together, Nora and Christina explore what it means to lead with awareness, navigate personal and collective transformation, and stay grounded while working toward a more just and regenerative future.
Nora shares her personal journey into social change, details about Parayma, her new project designed to support systems change leaders, practical tools like the Power Flower to reflect on privilege, and why creativity, and strong support networks are essential for sustainable impact.
A grounded and honest exchange about leadership, barriers, purpose, and the role each of us can play in creating positive change.
Our Guest
https://www.norawilhelm.org/ Nora Wilhelm
https://www.parayma.co/ Parayma
Shownotes
Collaboratio Helvetica https://collaboratiohelvetica.ch/
The "I" and the "We" - Frédéric Laloux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIcmpy10PaE
Otto Scharmer Prescencing Institute https://www.presencing.org/
References from the Wordrap
Maya Angelou
Becky Chambers
Bayo Akomolafe - https://www.bayoakomolafe.net/
We need everyone, right? We need everyone in this transition, in this transformative process. Everyone has a role to play. And those most privileged amongst us who kind of culminate, who have this stack of privileging identities that rank the highest, are just as needed as everyone else. And I do believe that with great privilege comes great responsibility. Systems can be changed and are being changed actually every day. I mean, you can see two plus people in the US at the moment who have a lot of power doing a lot of systems change work, right? And they can do it basically overnight. One decision, tax systems change, 2000 people fired, next decision, right? So that's illustrating also why it is so hard for many change workers, because typically those people who want change, who are not invested in the status quo, who actually want things to evolve, are not the people at the very top of those pyramids. And so it's not about denying who we are. It's not about saying I'm not white or I'm not a woman or I'm not a man or I'm not cis or I'm not heterosexual or whatever the case may be. It's in fact for me about owning all of those aspects of ourselves and really realizing what doors this also opens. So if I acknowledge this, what do I feel maybe responsible for? What do I feel called for? Art for me, at the bottom of it, is truth. And because of that, art has such a power for clarity. It is such, I want to say, a magical bridge, but it's not magic, but it is a very, very powerful bridge to overcome the divide from the self.
SPEAKER_01:A question people should ask themselves more often is... How am I embodying the paradigms I wish to see?
SPEAKER_00:My name is Sabine Gromer.
SPEAKER_01:And my name is Christina Huber. And you're listening to Magnolia Tree's podcast, Inspiring Brave Leaders.
SPEAKER_00:We leverage our network of inspiring individuals from all walks of life to learn from their experiences with leadership.
SPEAKER_01:We aim to spark thinking on ethics and leadership, one podcast episode at a time. Welcome to another episode of our Inspiring Brave Leaders podcast. My name is Christina, and I'm so thankful you tuned in today to join my conversation with our guest, Nora Wilhelm. Hello, Nora. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me. Nora, I actually expect you to be quite busy these days as we are speaking shortly after launching your newest project, Paraima. Congratulations on this. Can you already share some insights on what this project is about and what it means to you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, of course. Thank you. It's been really exciting. We launched on the 25th of February, so last week on Tuesday. And the project is the result of, I would say, the last eight years of my journey in the field of systems change and realizing how complex and difficult this work is and how little support there is available for it. I noticed that most people who, you know, act as coaches or consultants in the field typically don't have firsthand experience of what it means actually to be a systems change leader on the ground with skin in the game, right, dedicated to a specific topic or challenge and being confronted with the fact that it will remain unchanged or even you will see backlashes and things going in the other direction of what you hope for many years and just the challenge of that and the fact that you struggle for funding typically you struggle to find support you struggle with resistance to change from powerful stakeholders these are just unique challenges to I think experience in practice I experienced them I trained and supported dozens of systems change leaders who experienced them and I wanted to make something available that will help more people and also moving the focus from just Switzerland to a more global scale. So that's what I'm excited to be able to do with Paraima.
SPEAKER_01:That sounds wonderful. Now, as we have a lot of people listening also that aim to change systems in their own circles of influence, that would also be my first question. What kind of support networks do you provide? How does the project you launched now work? How do you provide support? And what has been helpful for you also during your journey?
SPEAKER_02:What I noticed is that one of the biggest questions that people ask me after a speech or a workshop, for example, is how did you find your purpose and how can I find mine? So how did you figure out what was your piece, your contribution in this big transition, in this big change that is unfolding and that we are all contributing to or wanting to contribute to? So that is what I focused on at first. So this is the group I call Seed. So I have three groups, Seed, Root and Bloom. And the Seed group are people who are asking this question, who are saying the world is on fire. Everything seems urgent the challenges are so big and so vast and how do I find what is mine to do amongst all of this and so what I help those people to do is to hone in on that to figure out what is their unique contribution what are they uniquely positioned to make a difference in to really make a change and I wrote a workbook for this purpose that is going to come out later this year and I'm also offering an online course that is going to go live as well later this year and some people may also prefer to work with me one-on-one on this so So there's kind of different options. Do you just want to do this process on your own, you know, in a nice cafe or in a park with a book? Do you want to do it with a community of people journeying alongside you? Then maybe the online course is a better fit. Or do you really need a lot of individual support and maybe your situation is uniquely complex or you just want to get to the result very quick? Then you can also work with me one-on-one. And then the second group is called Root. So these are people who have found their unique contribution, who know that they want to make a difference, for example, in the education system or in a climate change and ecosystem collapse or in women's rights, right? You name it. But they're realizing that the strategies that they have been taught and that they were told would work and would lead to change are actually not getting them where they want to go. So they're constantly running into barriers, into obstacles, into resistance, and they are looking for other strategies. So they're looking for, for example, systems change strategies and figuring out what could be a new approach, a different approach that will potentially advance a deeper change and the one that they're really yearning for. So again, these people over time, I'm still writing that book, but they will be able to pick up a workbook if that's what they want to do, join an online course in community or work with me one-on-one. And the last group, the Bloom group are people who have been systems change leaders for a couple of years, and they are running into all the challenges that this field of work presents. I mentioned a few of them before. So they're struggling to find funding. Typically they're struggling with resistance to change of powerful stakeholders, and they're struggling as a risk with maybe team challenges, leadership challenges, burnout is a huge risk for people in this field. And what I really don't want to see happen is people who are actually brilliant and so committed and so talented leave the field because it is just too hard and they cannot keep going any longer. They had a burnout, maybe a second one, and they realized that they can't keep going on like this. I would love to see a world that is just and regenerative, right? That's my vision. That's what I'm working towards. And what I'm asking is couldn't it be one where change workers thrive also? So why is it that change workers are kind of as the norm suffering? We're on the struggle bus, right? Or we're barely surviving. We're just making ends meet, whatever the case may be. And I would love to see a world, a community in Baraima where change workers also get to thrive. And that's what I'm really committed to in helping also this Bloom group to do their most impactful, most meaningful work that they really feel called to do but without having to constantly sacrifice themselves or their health.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I noticed myself nodding while you were speaking. I can see a lot of those patterns that you mentioned also in the surroundings we work in and the people that try to drive change. And we'll definitely, so it's a privilege for us to have you here and we hope to get some sneak peeks of what you were trying to, yeah, which messages you're trying to get out there and maybe also your strategies. But I think before we dive into that, we still owe our listeners actually a short introduction of you and your previous projects also, because as you said, all of this is rooted in a lot of work you have already done. So Nora, I feel like you dedicated your time and your all actually to social innovation and system change those last years. So from an early age on, you participated in youth engagement. You co-founded Collaboratio Helvetica in Switzerland, an initiative to drive collective social change. You founded a so-called change atelier called The Well in 2013 It offers art-based tools to support also change makers, mental health, who get to that as well, after your own experiences also with burnout. And furthermore, you're an advisor, speaker, and facilitator for most on those topics like system change, collaboration, democracy, and social innovation. And all of that is pretty impressive, I think, not just to me, but obviously also to some big institutions like UNESCO or Forbes. You got recognized as a Forbes 30 under 30 list maker. And in 2021, You were a Swiss delegate at the UNESCO Economic and Social Development Conference. And that is actually just a short extract of your fields of expertise and work. But is that information so far so correct?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would say so. And I think you can tell that I got an ADHD diagnosis along the burnout diagnosis a couple of years ago. A tendency to want to do many things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'd say it's a curse and that is a good flip side of it, maybe, or something where, yeah, we also need people that are neurodiverse. because, yeah, you contribute a lot to the society. Still, you now mentioned ADHD. I don't think it's the only reason that got you into all of this. And that's what I would be really curious about. So what have been some key motivators for you to get so involved in social change? I remember when I was a
SPEAKER_02:child, I was always really curious. I just wanted to understand how things work, why they work in this way. And also, I just never took the way things were done as legitimate enough a reason to keep doing them in this way. So I would always read question, why is this done in this way? And why don't we do it like this other way? Or what would be an alternative? I found a text a couple of years ago that I had written when I was in primary school, when they taught us that, I think it was a lesson on Vikings. And they taught us that, you know, the boy Vikings were learning to shoot arrows for hunting and the girl Vikings were learning to cook and take care of children and so on. And I wrote this essay that I now would call baby feminist. Of course, I didn't know the term feminist back then but I was like you know basically saying this is weird like why you know why doesn't everyone learn to do everything and actually those things we were taught back then were then later on disproven as just a projection from the current patriarchal paradigm onto the past right like especially male scientists tend to always tended some still do to assume other societies and past civilizations also operated on their patriarchy and some didn't right the Celts had a very different point of on women. Anyway, that's a little tangent there. But the main point is that I think I always had this sense of curiosity of justice also, and fairness was always really important to me. And then when I was, I think, 15 or 16 years old, I just had an experience where within a fairly short amount of time, information came into my field that burst kind of this bubble of childhood that I was still wrapped in up to that point. So for me, it was seeing footage of deforestation in the Amazon. I think I still cannot see like like a proper full length footage of one of these ancient trees being cut down without at least tearing up or like, you know, feeling affected by the site. Hearing about what happened in Rwanda and realizing that even though we could have taken action as an international community, for some reason we didn't manage to, that was just a shock to me. And it's challenged a lot of what I thought I knew about the world, how I thought the world worked. And it just kind of proposed me into this reality where Either I would accept the status quo or I would be committed to change. And for me, the answer was crystal clear. Like from that point on, I knew my life was going to be dedicated to making a change, to contributing, to making a difference. So for me, from that point on, the question was never, should I do this? Or should I be interested in this? Or should I do this work as a career, quote unquote? The question was just how, like, what am I going to do concretely? What's my next step? And I discovered that if you're interested and if you're committed and you're really wanting to contribute and your ego is not in the forefront but just your commitment to making a contribution doors actually open up for you you do have to knock right it's not everything not people will not come get you and pick you up and offer opportunities but like if you knock and you show up and you say hey I really care about this and I want to help there are opportunities to start you know I started volunteering I started doing internships at the Red Cross at Terre des Hommes a local development and poverty alleviation NGO in Geneva, going to UN youth conferences, right? It was just one thing kind of led to the next from that point onward. And I kept learning more about the challenges that we are facing as a society, as humanity. And I also learned more about the ways in which I personally can make a difference.
SPEAKER_01:Now, you explained that those events that you said we have to do better, we have to get away from this. But is there also a clear positivity vision you have of the future that is driving you? And if yes, how does that vision look to you?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I mean, I would say it is not so much a specific vision in terms of we are going to live in trees and eat this kind of food and the society will be structured in these ways, right? I think I know too much now about emergence and complexity to think that some of the things I might be picturing are anything more than a dream or an aspiration. Even if we succeed, let's say, in creating a future that is just and that is regenerative, I don't pretend to know what exactly that will look like. I can envision it, you know, and there are things that inspire me, of course, but we'll see. All we can do is stay the course and build it and kind of through emergence and co-creation, see where that leads us. But I just had this sense that things can be done differently. Things can be done better. And if that better in, you know, it depends on the context that you look at, like they can be less wasteful. that we can be kinder, that we can be more generous with each other, that there can be more inclusion and respect for people who love differently, who look differently and so on and so forth. I also had a clear sense that we need justice, like we need fairness. We need to make sure that it's not only about transitioning to quote unquote sustainability for a privileged few. And it's not only about, you know, buying suddenly sustainable products or whatever the case may be. may be, but it's really about the just transition. It's about making sure that everyone can live in freedom and everyone can realize their potential and can actually thrive and make the choices that they want to make. And in this, I include all beings. This is also pretty important to me. Very often, I find that we are very anthropocentric, right? We are very focused on humans. And in a way, it's important and it's good, right? That we pay attention to the human being as it actually is and not as our economic theories would tell us that we are, but as beings whose main happiness is derived from relationships and community and feeling like we are useful and making a contribution and so on. I think all of that's excellent and important to do. And at the same time, we are one of so many species, right? And I really hope that at some point we transition into a world where we stop feeling so apart and above and in a place to, quote unquote, like be in dominion of the rest of nature. Instead, I hope that we transition to a future where we see ourselves completely as part of local ecosystems, of bigger systems that we built that are social, but really part of something, one of many, and that we find beauty in those relationships and those interconnections and the reciprocity that they come with as well.
SPEAKER_01:Have you already witnessed or encountered systems or communities where you say, I feel like they have figured this out? In small
SPEAKER_02:pockets, like Margaret Wheatley says, when we are living in collapse, right? When we are living in the throes of a society and of a system, a civilization that is coming to an end and is doing so like kicking and screaming, right? Like a lot of the things that I'm witnessing now that I think many of us are preoccupied by can be seen as further symptoms of a dying system, right? Like I'm talking about things like more and more right-wing extremism and trying to strip away more rights and exert even more control over women's bodies and so on and so forth. Like all of those things are super alarming, right? Of course we need to act and we need to stay in touch with them. And from one point of view, they can really be seen as this kind of act of kicking and screaming as a certain civilization, a certain paradigm is slowly coming to an end because Because it has to, because it's simply not going to be sustainable in the most essential sense of this word over time. And amidst all of that, what Margaret Wheatley proposes is that what we can do is create what she calls pockets of sanity, right? Bubbles of sanity. So spaces in which we have been able to create a protective membrane around whatever it is that we are building. So whether it's an organization, a community, a family, a neighborhood, right? like creating a protective membrane around that, a kind of a barrier that ensures that the paradigms that apply out there don't necessarily apply in there so that we are able to cultivate a different culture, a different way of functioning, of being together, of taking decisions, of treating each other and the rest of nature, right? All of that. So I've seen it in small pockets. I sometimes see glimpses of it in communities. I'm a part of, for example, the Dalai Lama fellow I see it in places where people have come together to live differently, like in eco villages, or even in, you know, sustainable neighborhoods. I see it in organizations, glimpses of it, of just so many people who are committed to coming together and doing it differently, even though it's incredibly hard. So have I seen someone or an organization that has completely figured it out and is completely able to live in alignment with their purpose and their values? I don't think so. And at the same time, there's a humbleness in recognizing that none of us are perfect. None of us are the finished product. None of us live in this utopia. And if people do, then I find that it may come at the cost of being in touch with reality, right? Because exiting the system and using our white people, European people, for example, purchasing power to buy land in some other country that doesn't have the same purchasing power resources and creating a utopia there and exiting effectively exiting the system okay that's a way to go that's not personally my way for now and we do need people who you know create these lighthouse projects and show that the future can be lived and prototype and so on but many of us are still going to be embedded in these systems as they are now because we are also working on changing them right we are not just creating a new school we are wanting to change the education system We are not just creating ecovillages, we are also hoping to make legal legislation in a country that allows for more sustainable, circular and community-oriented building, and so on and so forth, right? Because at the end of the day, the transformation has to be for everyone. None of us are free until we're all free. So for me, just exiting the system to create a paradise is, in my eyes, not necessarily the answer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, you said something really interesting when you said, okay, so it is a fine line between losing a sense for reality and creating those utopias kind of or exiting a system and just like leaving it behind us how's the best way to navigate that to say like okay I try to change the systems we're living in without losing touch of reality or trying to build utopias that leave people behind them it's a
SPEAKER_02:really tough question it's I don't think there is one right answer there is a concept by Peter Senge that always guides me in this reflection it's called the creative tension And he speaks about how on the one hand, there is reality and what is right now. And on the other hand, there is the future potential in our vision or what we know would be possible. And if we're only in touch with, for example, the future vision and the potential, we become idealists, irrelevant, potentially we exit completely the systems and we are not able to change something material in reality because we lost that connection to reality, at least not for most people, maybe for oneself, if we are very privileged, but for most people, no. And on the other hand, if we're only connected to reality and the way things are, and we lose connection with our visions, then we become cynical, depressed, apathic, right? Thinking nothing can ever change. And we are also not making a difference because we are not even compelled to act because we think everything is doomed. So the change worker, the person who cares about change and wants to work towards change, stands firmly in between those two, stands firmly in that tension. that Peter Senge calls the creative tension between the way things are and the way things could be. And I find that if I do that, if I constantly anchor myself both in what I see right now and the potential that I also see, then I'm able to make creative choices. Then I'm able to consider a step in the direction of the potential without losing sight of what is. But we really have to consider this, I think, almost on a daily basis. And it will look a little bit different also for each strategy so I find that as paradigms end and other paradigms emerge I already mentioned some people go out and you know kind of are maybe trailblazers or pathfinders or they create these lighthouse projects and prototype the new other people work at the intersection of what is ending and what is emerging and try to help as much of what was transition into the new maybe also taking what works and what is good about the existing system into the new paradigms, tries to help people along, tries to inform about the alternatives, right? So have some kind of role at this intersection. And other people are in the paradigms and in the systems that are ending, that are dying. And very often they're doing some kind of hospicing work. They're helping those systems end. Either they're helping them end by calling for them to end, right? I'm thinking of an activist against the petrol industry or the armament industry to stop them from delivering weapons to countries that are currently committing genocide and so on and so forth. So people who are calling for the stop of certain practices and other people are trying to do either damage control as things end, helping people maybe get retrained so that they don't just lose their livelihoods when something is going to end or working behind the scenes to kind of allow for that transition. So of course, when I come back to the creative tension depending what role you're taking right you might be more in connection and embodying the future potential if you're one of those who's out there prototyping the new and so on or you might be very much anchored in the paradigms that are coming to an end if that's your work so it's always a little bit individual but I think we can check in with ourselves am I really embodying the principles that I hold true for myself am I embodying the values that I hold? And is this really, yeah, is my work really an embodiment, an expression of the vision that I hold true? And for example, if I was honest with myself, if I just went out and created a little paradise just for me and my three friends, then if I'm honest, probably, yes, maybe on the regeneration aspect, maybe on the new schooling system, it would be very much in alignment. But the inclusion and the justice aspect wouldn't be. All right, so I think we all have to find their own strategies to navigate this fraught terrain. But at the end of the day, those are things that help me figuring out what's my contribution and always being in touch with both the future potential and the reality.
SPEAKER_01:Now, you are often addressing paradigm shifts and you have touched upon a few of those like white supremacy, for example. What would you say? Where do we really urgently need paradigm shifts and which collective perspectives do we have to change?
SPEAKER_02:In quote unquote Westerns, societies? Sadly, so many. So one model that goes even beyond naming the specific paradigms, but kind of gives expression to what underpins all of this that we're discussing and observing the consequences of is the three divides by the Presencing Institute, Otto Scharmer and Eva Pomeroy and so on. And they speak about the ecological divide, which is a belief, something that we have been taught, that we are separate from the rest of nature, as we already discussed, right? And this was very big, for example, in Christianity, right? Like man was created to dominate over the rest of nature and so on and so forth for those people who take the text very literally. And then there is the social divide, which speaks to this belief and also something that we were taught, maybe more subtly, maybe more in socialization, that I am different from another person. We are not fundamentally connected like for example buddhism would would postulate right that we are fundamentally connected and especially the more different you are from me the less we are connected so okay we might both be humans but as soon as the way that you love the way that you look your beliefs your religion whatever the case may be the further that is apart from mine the less i see you as my kin right so that is the social divide and the last one they call the spiritual divide and actually that's a divide from the self. So that is kind of the result of being a child and then a teenager and growing into adulthood in a society that does not encourage us to really know ourselves. That does not encourage us actually to ask questions, to discover our values, to find out what we are most passionate about and what our gifts are to bring to the world, right? So it's ironically a society that is so focused on individuality and the self, but without real knowledge of the self. Like it's in collectivist societies, very often it's assumed that everyone has an important contribution to make to the collective and children are supported in finding out what that is. And in ours, yes, we talk about what do you want to be when you grow up and so on, but very often the value that we ascribe to individuality is status symbols, right? Is what car do I drive? And do I have the right title and the fancy role and the fancy accolades and maybe a fancy watch whatever the case may be so I think younger generations have distanced themselves from this somewhat but it's still a very confusing world to grow up in where so much emphasis is put on on you as a person as a single individual and we have this kind of hyper independence that is promoted but actually we are we are not also supported or encouraged to really be in touch with ourselves and practices like meditation right self-awareness practices all kinds of creative expressions bring us to this increased connection with ourselves so that's one of the ways in which this divide can be kind of can be overcome so the paradigms that we need to change in my opinion all stem in some degree from these three divides so the most obvious ones to me are the way that we look at nature and we see something that we can extract and we can control and sometimes it used to be more that was something that was believed to be dangerous and therefore we had to control it right i'm talking more in the in the middle ages in europe for example and in the kind of belief that was there but nowadays it's like okay how can this be turned into profit the value of the tree is only once it's cut down and processed into some furniture or something from extraction to a paradigm that would be regenerative and reciprocal and right relationship between us and the rest of nature. Another one is this paradigm of, and I'm going to put them all kind of together, right? White supremacy, patriarchy, ableism, all of those that stem from this idea that we are separate and specifically the white cis het man is supreme to all the others. And even though it's not codified like this anymore in our constitutions, that reality is still very much alive in many practices and the way research has been done mostly on males for example and not on women so we don't know about the side effects of certain things specifically for people who have a cycle right just sometimes it's in the legacies of old systems sometimes it's in the practices and policies of parental leave right and so on and so forth of today and then lastly this reconnecting to ourselves like just a fundamental thing that we are taught if you had any economics classes right it's this ominous economicus like we are we are We are here to consume. We are here because we are motivated by self-interest. This is a very big belief, a very big assumption that has been made and that lies at the basis of all of our economic systems. And rather to see human beings as consumers, as egoistical, self-interest driven people, I think it's essential for us to see ourselves as a social species, as a species who has never succeeded or existed in isolation, as a species who relies on each other, who is interdependent, who is community oriented by default. And I don't know a single person who does not want to actually make a contribution. And sometimes we were misled and we were taught that making a contribution means earning a certain amount of money and, you know, in that way, like furthering the name of the family. Okay. But I really cannot think of a single person who does not want in some way to make a difference in their society, in their community. So those are some of the paradigm shifts that I think are truly needed and in a way are already coming.
SPEAKER_01:So you said they are already coming. You do see seeds of that societal transformation already. Are you hopeful in terms of that?
SPEAKER_02:I do see them very much so. I see them in the number of people who turn towards change work, who turn towards social innovation, wanting to make a difference as i said i see it also in you know the way the discourse has evolved like just when i started um in 2017 in this field of systems change at first in switzerland we were looked at like what is this like are you anarchists like you know like what what does that mean and now i think also with the pandemic and when we talked a lot about what our system essential roles right like there has been a certain shift and understanding of what systems are and that systems can be changed and are being changed actually every day. I mean, you can see two plus people in the US at the moment who have a lot of power doing a lot of systems change work, right? And they can do it basically overnight. One decision, tax systems change, 2000 people fired, next decision, right? So that's really in a way for me, like illustrating also why it is so hard for many change workers, because typically those people who want change, who are not invested in the status quo, who actually want things to evolve, are not the people at the very top of those pyramids. So we cannot make those decisions, right? We cannot implement a law or make a presidential decision on something overnight. So that's in a way what we're up against. So I see hope. Yes, I see seeds of the paradigms that are growing. I see something that makes me very hopeful is when the same kind of ideas are popping up in many different places. When people who are not necessarily talking to each other, are not necessarily aware of the same things or don't even come from the same cultures or schools of thought, come up with similar ideas. It's for me a proof that, okay, the time has come for this work to be done and for this work to be done, not just in isolation, but as more of a movement. So I do see, you know, the forces evolving. that we're up against also intensifying in a way their crackdown. So I think there are very many legitimate reasons to be worried and to stay aware and to stay committed and to, if needed, adjust our strategies. But I also see seeds of the future that we are envisioning. And so many people who are committed to making the best difference they can, literally dedicating their lives to living into a better tomorrow. So what's not to be hopeful about?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can actually still remember very clearly uh a a quote at the last summit where actually is who of us met at the art of change summit which was basically pessimism is for better times and that really stuck with me for for a long time so yeah good uh good to to hear that you cultivate that as well now you touched upon a point that is actually i think super crucial in all of that because as you said the people that hold a lot of power often are also the ones that right now call or are at least symptoms of the systems that we have right now that are maybe failing or that are not the most regenerative ones, that are not the most helpful ones for us right now. And that's oftentimes, as you said, white male leaders. Now, this is a podcast about leadership. So I guess there is a few of our listeners that are exactly that, which is white male leaders. So how would you address those leaders as well? How can they play a part? And what is maybe also their responsibility in system change without putting pushing also shame in that direction or feelings of fault?
SPEAKER_02:The first thing I'll say is that we need everyone, right? We need everyone in this transition, in this transformative process. Everyone has a role to play. And those most privileged amongst us who kind of culminate, who have this stack of privileging identities that rank the highest, are just as needed as everyone else. And I do believe that with great privilege comes great responsibility. So What I like to do is there is this tool called the Power Flower. It's been established, I think, over a decade ago, used in many, many different settings. And what it basically looks like is a flower with many petals. And on each petal, you have one element of your identity, for example, your gender. And they are ranked in more or less, sometimes it's not that easy to say, sometimes it's very obvious, of what will award you in the current paradigms the most privilege versus the least. So for example, on gender, you may have a cis man, then you may have a cis woman, and then you may have trans of either gender, and then you may have gender fluids, non-binary people, and so on. You may have your skin color, right? And obviously in our paradigms, the lighter your skin is, the higher up you go on the privilege line. You may have your education level, right? Did you graduate from university or did you finish high school and so on and so forth? Also, for example, how good is your English, right? Like that's a huge marker of privilege in a world that mostly reverts to English as a lingua franca, as a language that we all speak when we come together across different cultural borders and nations. So kind of engaging in this exercise, for many people, it can bring up a lot of defensiveness. It can bring up things like, oh, but like, yes, okay, fine. I'm white and I'm cis and okay, and I have this, but like, I'm not a bad person. and like I didn't do anything evil and I don't abuse my power right like maybe things or reactions like this come up or potentially the sense that one has to justify their accomplishments like oh but actually yes I have these things but like I worked really hard to get where I am right so these are all very typical and in a way understandable reactions to be to being confronted maybe for the first time with this mirror of our own privilege and in a way we can take ourselves and each other by the hand and say it's okay like you know we need everyone in this process and becoming aware of where we stand in this hierarchy that our society has created of human beings and how much privilege it has awarded us is in a way one of the greatest learning journeys we can ever undertake it's the way for me to become aware of the blind spots that we held so far it's truly a If we want to embody the future that we want to see, because even if I'm very committed, for example, to regeneration and I say things like inclusion and fairness, if I have not done the work of understanding how the fact that, for example, my skin happens to be white or the fact that I happen to have a Swiss passport opens doors for me that will remain closed to other people who may be equally qualified, equally smart, equally committed. If I don't understand that and have a perspective on this, then how can I really create a future that is just and inclusive and regenerative? It will just remain something that I'm blind to, that I'm not able to see. And in those moments, we can ourselves as changemakers, as leaders, become obstacles to the future we really want to see. And I don't think anyone wants that, right? I don't think anyone listening to a podcast called Brave Inspiring Leaders wants to be themselves an obstacle on the way to the change that they're working towards but it happens I have been this right in my case I have been blind to how the ways that I exploited myself and I worked myself into a burnout and you know kept giving more and more and more was not just bad for me and for my ability to do this work over time but it also is like sending a negative signal to the world around me either it's saying maybe don't do change work because you'll end up in the burnout clinic like this one or maybe it's saying on paper I'm committed to a regenerative future for everyone but I'm not embodying it right so how could I possibly truly work towards it anyway so I think what I'm saying is it's essential and it's really important to be able to have this reflection because it will make us the more powerful and the more impactful leaders and change workers if we're able to go through this process and with the great privilege comes the great responsibility but also the great power right so as we were saying before like we now have trump for example what if what if this was a person who made a different decision and the difference would be astronomical right like it would be hard to quantify in words how much of a difference it would make if certain people who are in power today would make different decisions and so it's not about denying who we are it's not about saying i'm not white or i'm not a woman or I'm not a man or I'm not cis or I'm not heterosexual or whatever the case may be it's in fact for me about owning all of those aspects of ourselves and really realizing what doors this also opens so if I acknowledge this what do I feel maybe responsible for what do I feel called for do I feel maybe called to speak to other white cishet men who are currently a bit lost and often feeling attacked and like they don't have their place anymore in this of the world. Emma, maybe if I'm going through this journey myself, very well positioned to speak to those people and I can have a huge impact if I choose to do so. And what doors are open to me that are not open to other people? And how can I navigate this truth? Because it is a truth in a way that is responsible. So in some cases, it's not about not accepting the award or not accepting the job. But it's about accepting the award, putting our foot in the door and saying, hey, did you see all of these super qualified women, people of color, people from other countries, whatever group is currently not being seen in this field? Did you notice them? And use our relative power then in that space to pass the mic, right? To open the door, to level the playing field further. It could be redistributing resources. It could be offering opportunities, right? They could be hiring certain people once we are in a certain position. There's just so much that can be done once we have taken responsibility for the fact that we have privileges. And that's okay. It's just something that we need to navigate and in a way make the best possible use of once we have the awareness of what that means.
SPEAKER_01:That resonates a lot. So you've already said two crucial skills, actually, that are also needed, I think, for leaders in today's world to navigate change. And I want to talk about those a bit more. One thing you mentioned also is being aware of one's own mental health. I think you could tell a whole story about that one as well. But for everybody who's listening, we can also really recommend listening to our last podcast episode with Jimmy Westerheim, who touches upon that in a very beautiful way as well. And the second thing you mentioned also is now having that ability of self-reflection and of putting up one's own mirror and being like, okay, so who am I looking at? What would you say are other core skills that you consider really essential for leaders that are not just leaders, but everybody who's also doing self-leadership, I'd say, and navigating transformational change in today's world? As you say,
SPEAKER_02:self-awareness and the ability to take responsibility for ourselves is, I think, essential. It's like the foundation that other things can then be built or stacked on. The ability to navigate mental health, our own energy, manage our own energy, take care of ourselves is also essential because Because without that, we are in it for a very short run. We're in it for a sprint before we break down. And it's not a sprint. It's really more of a big, big marathon. In addition to that, I think the ability to understand ecosystems. So I would say self-awareness, but also ecosystem awareness. So understanding where am I in this ecosystem? And it's something that Frédéric Lallou said in an interview I once did with him, that the I is needed to really step into the we. So this self-awareness that we've already talked about allows me to then take a very conscious position in the field that I'm in. So say, for example, I work towards addressing ecosystem collapse in a specific country, in a specific region of the world. The understanding of who I am, what my contribution is, how I can make a difference, the resources, the access, the privileges that I have, also the ones I don't have, the strategy that I can use, and so on and so forth, the assets that I bring to the table. Understanding that and seeing other people in the same field as me, not as competitors, but as other members of the same team, whether people like football, soccer, basketball, you name it. I'm not a big sports fan, so my analogies kind of stop there. But just imagining that we are part of the same team and we are shooting towards the same goal, right? We're trying to go in the same direction. Suddenly, it allows me to position myself in the potentially most impactful way. It also allows me to approach others with openness and curiosity and appreciation for their contribution. And it opens the door for all possible synergies and collaborations to come in, which is so essential. And I think sometimes we need to, you know, take ourselves a little bit on the hook and be like, okay, am I being ego-driven right now? Like, am I navigating this field from a place of ego, from a place of I want to be the one who? And I often hear this when people spend more time criticizing how other people are doing change work the strategies of other people then they are on what is my strategy what am i doing and you know how is theirs maybe a necessary approach for some people for certain audiences and mine is another one so kind of having this both self-awareness and ecosystem awareness allows us to see things not as either or but as synergetic complementary and just a much more positive and mutually supportive approach i think overall and then it very much depends on what our specific strategy is. But I think the ability to really listen to other people and to be really honest and authentic in the stories that we share has a tremendous power, no matter the positioning or the strategy, whether you're advancing circular economy, whether you're building a startup that takes plastic out of the ocean, right? Whatever the case may be, being able to really connect to another person, whether that's a stakeholder, someone that you're seeking to work or to support, just to really see each other's humanity and really understand where that person is coming from is such a skill. And it's something that we really need to learn and practice consciously because none of us were taught this as children or in school, right? And being able to, in turn, be really honest and authentic about what moves us, what breaks our hearts, what touches us, what drives us forward, right? And whether that's what makes us really angry and enraged at times. what makes us really moved and inspired and hopeful at others, all of this is valuable. Like I think a lot of them spaces in which there's leadership and professionalism, they have become very sanitized. It's in a way, like we try to strip away as much of our humanity as possible. But the thing is for me, that is exactly one of the causes why we are even ending up in this place. Too many of us have accepted to strip away too much of our humanity and that's why we are in this mess. Like we lost connection from ourselves, from nature, from each other. So reconnecting to ourselves, to each other, to the rest of nature and showing up as full human beings in these spaces, that can be a radical thing to do. And I was just discussing with two other Dalai Lama fellows that I very much admire, Flavia from Brazil and Vuyo from South Africa. And we were talking about at times, just you being in the room changes the conversation. And we were talking about, you know, know the uprising of racism bolstered by trump right now in south africa and voyo as a super powerful strong black woman in business showing up to a meeting right and how that changes the conversation if it is in conversation with someone who for example holds a racist belief and just this ability to show up really as human beings as who we are with our humanity with things that we might have been told oh don't say that that makes you vulnerable Or like, oh, that's embarrassing. Or don't share your dreams. Like that's considered unprofessional. And when we do that anyway, when we just follow what's in our hearts and what feels true to us, I really think the rooms that we are in shift and things can change in ways that we didn't expect them to at all.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the power to connect. I feel like there is one thing that also has a lot of power to connect. And that for me, at least, I think for a lot of people, this artwork, and also you're dedicating quite some time to artwork. And so I'd really like to build a bridge there to this topic. And I figured it might be a good idea to pick up a recent tradition in this podcast, because what we usually do is we ask ChatGPT to write poems about our guests, right? So I asked ChatGPT about her artwork and your artwork in particular contributes to societal change. And I would like to read to you what ChatGPT said, and I'd really like to get your take. So AI said, I'm way more interested in your view and your opinion than the AIs. So maybe you can tell us a bit, which role does art also play for you in your work towards system change? And there was also this little play with the well in there. How did the well come to life? Art for me,
SPEAKER_02:at the bottom of it is truth. Like art, when it moves something in us, when it's not just, you know, oh, that's pretty or that's nice. Or like when it really reaches us deep down, when it moves something in our soul or in our hearts, it's because there is something about it that is true. And that can be the truth of an experience, of a single perspective, of a single person. It can even be a truth that I have never felt before, that I don't know this experience because I have not had it and my ancestors have not had it. And suddenly through an artwork, through a song, it moves me and it makes this experience that before I had no access to one that's part of my own experience also because of how truthful it is or it could be an experience that I may have had and I'm reminded of it either way there is something so powerful about art when it is truthful when it is honest and because of that art has such a power for clarity because if art is truth true art right good art if we want to qualify it if it is truth then I cannot write a poem in which I lie to myself I can but maybe it will say sound hollow. It will not have any power. It will feel like it doesn't have depth. I can only write a poem that actually I have kind of dug out from the depths of me or that as I write it, as the words pour out, moves something in me. And that's why I continue writing it. And if it moves something in me as I write it, likely it will move something in others when I read it. But because it has this ability of confronting us with truth, creating your own art, like trying to write your own poem or a short story or painting something, whatever your expression is, or dancing, right? Dancing your truth, imagine. It is such, I want to say a magical bridge, but it's not magic, but it is a very, very powerful bridge to overcome the divide from the self. So when I feel disconnected, when I was burned out and I had, for example, lost all sense of what feeling happy or well even felt like like it it felt like it was something it wasn't even accessible to me anymore it wasn't in the cards anymore some other Nora some other universe maybe but this one I could not have possibly written a poem about happiness and joy and how everything is going great I couldn't have right and I probably in that time didn't write at all because typically if I'm not well I'm not creative and I don't have access to this inner to this inner source of inspiration of expression But if I would write a poem, it would probably be very harsh. It would probably be confronting to read it. I remember I once wrote something that I felt like a ghost haunting my own life. Something along those lines, right? So sometimes there are words or images that come through when I write that if we just had talked and you had said, hey, how are you doing? I wouldn't have said, I feel like a ghost haunting my own life. I would have been like, yeah, you know, I'm fine. I have a lot going on, right? So there's something about... art and creative self-expression that just pierces through to a level of clarity and honesty and truth that I have rarely been able to access in such a direct way in conversation or otherwise. So that for me is just one aspect, one kernel of it. And the other thing that I realized is that a lot of the therapies, so for example, in the burnout clinic, we had art therapy where you would, you know, paint certain things or even just to get expressive again, to get creative again. We had movement therapy. We had music therapy so there were all these therapies that in a way reconnect you to you to your creativity to your life force because that's what it is right in a way like i think the same energy that makes us change workers can make us artists because it's the energy of wanting to create something wanting to create a better tomorrow wanting to create new projects right that is the same energy as creating poems as creating dances as moving in certain ways and so in that process process of me healing from my own burnout and observing how already as a young person I was always pursuing some creative endeavor I was writing a movie script I was doing these dance things I was I was always doing something and at some point I had kind of abandoned it because I was like now I have to do the real change work right like now now I have to contribute the real change work yeah exactly the real the real change work now now it's a time to focus and and the rest is a hobby right like suddenly all things things artistic became labeled hobby, maybe in my mind, frivolous, optional, maybe even at the worst of my burnout, even like, egoistic. Like, how dare you, Nora, want to take time for your art when you know that other people are experiencing this and this, when you know how urgent climate change is, when you know, right? And so I really had to work on that. And in this entire process, kind of realizing both the power of creative self-expression, the fact that it is the same energy as change work energy, creative And the fact that it makes us more connected to ourselves and therefore also to each other and to nature. I was like, this is too powerful an intersection to not do anything with it. And so I was, I don't know, I was dreaming about this, about a project at the intersection of this art, creativity, change work for our own healing, but also for reconnecting with nature, for reconnecting with our energy and replenishing our own inner wells as change workers. And that's kind of where the well came from. So yeah. the well change atelier is a project that was born out of my own experience out of witnessing this out of discovering this field also of research and study that speaks to the power of art and for example i read a study that of all the things you could do to alleviate depression dancing alone has the single biggest differentiator so for example if you take antidepressants combining it with movement is always better than just the antidepressant alone but dancing is specifically dancing is one of the best things you can do for your mental health and for alleviating or preventing the onset of depression. So just facts like this that I find this is incredible and there is such a power here. So learning that taking care of ourselves and replenishing our inner worlds is not in fact egocentric at all. If I was doing only this all day, of course, right? But I'm not speaking to people like that here. I'm speaking to people who are leaders, who are change workers, who want to make a difference. And I'm speaking to them and saying, hey, taking care of yourself and doing the things that regenerate your own energy are not optional. They're not egoistical. They're actually essential. They're essential for you to show up as the leader, as a change worker that you can be and that you are. So reframing things in this way has just been tremendously important for me. It's something I still have to remind myself of, to be honest. So it's not a done deal. It's a work in progress. But I'm so excited that this project is now out in the world and so if anyone feels like reconnecting to their creativity or replenishing their own wells through creative self-expression it's there there are workshops like empowerment through embodiment so returning to a place of feeling empowered through dancing through the elements we have a series of workshop called nature speaks where every week every workshop you work with a different element like you work with clay and you reconnect to the earth you work with fire and you connect to the energy of fire and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of different opportunities on there with different teachers. I collaborate with, you know, art therapists, dancers, artists of all kinds. So very welcome to have a look if that speaks to you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, welcome to the well. Yeah, great. Thank you for that work as well. We'll definitely put it in the show notes that I also put down. We'll also, for you listening at home, put down the work of Otto Schalmer and Frederic Laloux in case somebody is more interested in those. So you can have a good read in those as well. Yeah, and Nora, I think the two of us are actually coming to an end of this episode, but I would still like to put some more value in here for our listeners. I'd really like to end with a short word wrap. So if you're familiar with the concept, I'd like to start a sentence and I'd like you to end it just spontaneously with whatever comes to your mind without much thinking. And we'll just see which thoughts and reflections emerge as we let the game flow. If that's okay. Let's do it. Okay, first one. A leader that has in Maya Angelou. A question people should ask themselves more often is how am I embodying the paradigms I wish to see? If a museum would make a Nora Wilhelm exhibition, an artifact that could not be missed is books by Becky Chambers. We'll also put that one in the show notes. We were earlier talking about also letting go, breaking barriers, also grief work that change work sometimes inhibits. So I'd like you to end the sentence. Letting go is easier when... When I know that from the compost, new things will grow. A common misconception about system change
SPEAKER_02:is that... That it has to be incredibly large scale. It could be local. It could be within your environment, within your neighborhood at first. If I could spend a
SPEAKER_01:day in somebody else's shoes, I would pick... Being courageous for me means? Being truthful. A quote or a motto that shapes my leadership approach
SPEAKER_02:is? Never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has by Margaret Mead.
SPEAKER_01:And last question would be, or the last sentence is, if I could tell my younger self one thing, it would be?
SPEAKER_02:You're not alone and keep going. Great. Oh, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so I think we're coming to an end here, Nora. But is there a question I have not asked you yet or an opinion or a fact you would still like to voice. We still have time for that.
SPEAKER_02:I think this was a lovely conversation. We went far and wide and explored many different things. I always feel like I have to add a lot of nuance to what I say because I want to be clear with who I'm speaking to. And I think there's rarely anything that can be just taken at face value and applied to everyone as a blanket statement. So I appreciate also, you know, the leaders having their own reflections and their own reactions as they listen to this and their own maybe questions or things that they would want to ask as a follow-up or add as a comment. So I'm also looking forward to any feedback, any engagement that comes from this, any sparks that result from this conversation, from listening to this. And with Paraíma, it is truly my hope that it becomes a safe haven for change workers to dock in. And if they need to replenish their energy specifically, maybe the well is a better place to connect but if it's about finding renewed inspiration and community and just this sense we are not alone and to make sure that we are able to keep going and to do the work that is meaningful to us and that feels fulfilling that we came here to do then Paraima is a door that I hope you will knock on.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for that and is there a final call to action in terms of what especially also leaders can contribute to social change? I
SPEAKER_02:think my main call to action would be to remain in the creative tension and remain accountable. So remain committed to this concept of embodying our values as much as possible whenever possible. I think the act of doing so is incredibly powerful and in itself paves the way for a different future, for new paradigms to come into being through us.
SPEAKER_01:Embodying our values as much as possible whenever possible. Thank you for that. Thank you for the work you do, Nora, and for taking your time today to join us and for your inspiring thoughts. Yeah, we wish you really all the best in the work you continue doing. Thank you so much. Right back at you. It was a pleasure. Thank you. And to our listeners, whether you're listening at home or during commute in the morning, evening or lunch break, thank you for joining our conversation. We hope we could provide some food for thought and that you'll be with us again the next time when we're inspiring brave leaders. Thank you.